On Preventing Cultish Behavior
My post “What Is an Avatar Master?” drew some good criticism last night from a local friend of mine, David. The following post is largely in reply to his comments.
David: Thank you for taking time to weigh in on this subject. I think you make some very good points.
Regarding Wilber, you are more than welcome to raise the question of whether he’s leading a cult. In fact, I’ve done so myself, in my posting “Is Ken Wilber’s Integral Institute a Cult?”
I believe it’s important for any enthusiast of any school of thinking to explore the shadow side of what they value so much.
Let me try to boil down my own perspective on Avatar to something that seems really fundamental, at least to me.
One of my concerns about Avatar — based on my limited exposure, including the comments in response to my post (many of which I have since deleted for their lack of constructiveness) — is that I’m seeing a lot of identification for and against, but I’m seeing very little of people exploring the shadow side of their own commitments.
(Incidentally, I’m not using the word “shadow” in any technical sense; I am simply alluding to the fact that anything that casts intense light will inevitably cast shadow as well, if only because of our individual limitations in dealing with strong influences in our life.)
Now, even with my limited knowledge of Avatar, I see some very strong shadow elements.
The Avatar program teaches “secret” spiritual trainings, is very expensive, provides a financial incentive for graduates to recruit new students, and goes to some length to keep its teachings under wraps except for people who are recruited in the prescribed fashion.
Those factors alone are not enough to establish that an organization is a cult.
They would, however, virtually guarantee that an organization is prone to many of the cultish behaviors that seem endemic to human nature.
For example, it makes it likely that some people will come to identify with the secret Avatar program, and promote it to the exclusion of many other (free or less expensive) approaches for fostering spiritual growth that may be equally effective — if you are genuinely concerned with people’s growth rather than your institutional commitments.
It makes it likely that doe-eyed graduates will recruit other potential students with stories of having found the One Path.
It makes it likely that some people will become very zealous about the program but later come to regret their financial investment, social involvement, or efforts to recruit other people into the program.
So much of this just doesn’t seem truly spiritual in any way that I can recognize. There are no doubt some very healthy aspects to the Avatar training. But the financial side doesn’t seem to me to be one of them.
Again, right now I’m not trying to establish that Avatar is a cult. I’m simply saying that the organization is set up in a way that, other things being equal, would bring out many of the cult-like behaviors to which many people are prone.
And so the question that comes to my mind is, What safeguards have been built into the Avatar program to prevent these kinds of excesses from being realized?
I have no doubt that there are many, many Avatar teachers — including you, David — who discourage and frown upon cultish behavior.
However, the organizational structure is working against you. Merely adding young enthusiastic idealism to the above mixture is guaranteed to result in some cultish attitudes.
I’m personally doubtful that any amount of good intention, or common sense among the advanced teachers, will be able to fully mitigate the factors I discuss above. But perhaps I’m wrong.
In any case, I would be very interested to see proponents of Avatar publicly acknowledging both the pros and cons of their organization — not just the ways in which it can facilitate awakening, but also the ways in which it can result in problems.
To my mind, that would be the a good sign that some of Avatar’s proponents have succeeded in defying the organizational strictures that could encourage cultish behavior.
In my experience, one of the surest signs of a cult influence at work is the inability or unwillingness to discuss the negative aspects of an organization, because it suggests an unhealthy level of identification with that organization.
Namaste Joshua,
I know you have issues with the money aspect of the Avatar training and think more safeguards should be built into the organization. Your concerns are in some ways contradictory because the money aspect is a safeguard. Avatar is run as a for-profit business and for-profit businesses fail if they do not deliver a value equal to the product they deliver. And at least the first 4 to 5 days of training is delivered on a no-questions-asked money back guarantee if you are not satisfied.
There is a section in the back of ReSurfacing entitled Star’s Edge Philosophy that explains the somewhat unorthodox approach of Star’s Edge to spiritual development. Here’s a brief quote:
“The Avatar Program is a straightforward exchange of a valuable training program for valuable financial consideration. When you understand how really clean this is, and the ramifications…
“We’re not founding a new religious sect or any sort of true faith zealots. We don’t want to convey any belief system or series of agreements to people. We do not have a hidden agenda, nor do we apologize for being prosperous and powerful. Whoever created the belief that poverty and world service go hand-in-hand cost humanity the help of some of the brightest people who have ever lived.”
And then more:
“Our intention is that the people we train and license to deliver Avatar charge money (not worship nor homage nor admiration, but currency alone) for their valuable service and that they charge enough to guarantee that Avatar continues to expand and attract the able…”
PS While you were reading this post, it’s highly probably that somewhere in the world someone completed Avatar.
SE Comm,
This reply from you, following on the heels of what I just posted, is an excellent way to convince me that you are indeed mired in a cult.
Several things to note:
1. I’m the last person to have issues with money. I’m a freaking Objectivist — I love money. I am just concerned about the particular way in which your organization mixes money with spiritual proseletizing.
2. I see nothing in your message but boilerplate ra-ra for the Avatar program.
3. You are writing under a fake name, which lowers any trust I might have for your message.
4. You have ignored (and failed) the challenge I set forth in my message, which was to demonstrate that you see the shadow side of your own organization.
Traditional proseletizing will not get you very far here, because you’re behaving more or less exactly the way I would expect a professional cult to behave.
Also, earlier this morning you wrote and accused me of “empowering” someone to extort $4 million from your organization.
So you get an F so far.
I have no doubt there are many people within your organization who can demonstrate spiritual integrity. But you’re not doing it.
Joshua
Whatever your standards are for sipiritual integrity, don’t be too disappointed that I don’t meet them. They are your standards afterall.
Integrity has more to do with living according to one’s own standards than in desiring to bow to an appreciative audience.
Farewell.
I’m not asking you or anyone to bow before an appreciative audience. I’m asking you to acknowledge that your organization — any significant organization — has a shadow, a potential for harm, a dark side.
Replying that “your standards aren’t my standards” is a cop-out. I don’t think you are doing Avatar any favors by taking this route.
nice work Joshua
i like your DARK SIDE shadow side concept
i believe that ANY club — spiritual or not, boat clubs and councils — show their integrity and maturity by their understanding of this concept...
some spirtual orgs seem to to think it’s non existent which shows their ignorance others think it shouldn’t be mentioned — sort of like dictators, wanting to keep others in the dark
when the humn race starts looking at this principle we may get closer to this enlightened planet they promise, but when the avatar ites themselves are ignorant of it or in denial or wanting to keep it a secret.....
its a shame... they won’t put attention on subjects like this — i’m guessing because they think its dissempowering in some way... and because of the emphasis they place on attention, their lack of acknowledgement of subjects like this leads to blindspots
search for “epc 45″ basher .... to see if you are ready to be burned at the stake
If I had to go solely by the posts of Avatar members here alone, then I would have to think it’s a cult.
The main characteristic is inability to accept criticism. I’ve been rearching Avatar for some time — yes considering sources — and all I find in rebuttal to critics is a long-winded analysis of why they arew flawed and therefore biased and cannot be believed.
Biased? So what? Bias does not make a lie. That’s a basic rule of logic — ad hominem attacks are false arguments. Except if you take Avatarian subjective reality to the point of delusion, saying things like “you’re standards aren’t my standards” to avoid any possible responsibility outside of oneself.
According to one interpretation of Avatar philosophy, that’s okay. Do whatever you want — there is no right or wrong except what you can live with, and you can change what is right and wrong anytime you want because it’s only a limitation anyway. While this is true metaphysically, it is also indicative of mental and moral illness, and you cannot “discreate” the consequences of it, i.e. being called a cult, people not buying into your own (Palmer’s?)creation, which ironically you are unwilling to realize is the ultimate “transparent” belief.
Sorry if this offends you, but if you are unwilling to look at the “shadows” others speak of, then you are not willing to apply Avatar’s handling processes to Avatar itself.
Man, I remember when finding truth was a searching process of discovery, not a shopping experience of belief choices. I like belief management — a lot — but the pitfalls — when ignored — will ruin your life even if you insist on having a smile on your face to the end. That’s what they mean by ignorance is bliss.
Awesome!
I can relate completely with the unwillingness to look at the “shadow side”. I am the young enthusiastic idealist that you mentioned above and I am super enthusiastic about avatar...
well I was... for a while.
But... That zeal of having found the “One True way” lead me to some dark times. I didn’t look at my friends the same way, or anyone for that matter. Rather I saw people as another person that should do Avatar then all will be ok. And not only that, but they should take the course from me so I can get rich! /sigh It’s true. Avatar awakened a part of me that thrives in being in service to others, ( and it is true joy by the way!) but then another part of me crept right on in and said, how can I use this to get rich??
Then one day two friends, sat me down and totally ripped Avatar a new one. Basically calling it Scientology and being pretty rude about Scientology, and saying I got ripped off etc...
And so, being that I was sooo fixed into Avatar being soo freakin awesome, it was like having the world pulled from out under my feet and I felt really really crappy, for a few months. If Avatar is crap, well then I am crap, if it is a con, well then I am a con is what I felt. I went back to using actually.... (not drugs hehe, my form of escaping is MMO rpg’s, but that’s a new topic :D)
So even though during the course I was never told that this is the only way, this is the best etc... I came out believing that and went on to ostracize my friends and family and look at new friends as potential students. On top of all of that I couldn’t look at any anti avatar websites or writings, it just made me feel sick. Until this moment.
Thanks Joshua! Thanks for showing me the dark side, without any attacking witch trial type zeal. I’ve been so afraid of being attacked again that I haven’t mentioned avatar when people ask me what I’ve been up to. It’s funny but a positive thing that came out of my “heavy recruitment stage” was that I went to a lot of spiritual groups (fertile ground) and after easing my agenda of making new students I made some great friends and gained a broader appreciation of other seekers and other paths.
Right now I’m trying to find a way to get to the Wizards course in January. I have never been and I agree I feel like I’m being “sold” the course. The marketing is great over there at Star’s Edge! But... I’m 23 and totally broke, so lets go get the credit cards and rack up some debt right? This could be another shadow eh? But the story seems to go, using the wizards tools these self imposed limitations can be handled and the debt quickly and easily paid off. Empty promises, more shadows? dunno, but if you’re interested I’ll let you know how everything works out.
Regards,
Geoff Matson
P.S. I would just like to express what I’ve been afraid to say.
Never mind I’m still too scared. ~~~~ lol
ok ok ok
It’s just something along the lines of, I really want to help this planet. I want to leave the world a better place then I got it for the sake of my children and their children. And this is a attitude and a belief that was indoctrinated into me by Avatar, and I’m sincerely grateful for it.
thank you
Hello Joshua,
Was surprised to read your post and comments about Avatar!
May I share with you what my perspective is on the Avatar Course and the Materials to date having taken them in the early part of 1988 quite sometime ago;
1. They are very powerful techniques. They are easy to do and carry out with a good course facilitator. Not all Avatar Masters are created equal or much less gifted. Many of them do make mistakes and err. I dont think for a moment Harry Palmer claims to have all the answers and ever considers himself wiser than any of us. Neither does he claim to be the Pope!
While the cost is high in developing countries there is a mechanism whereby a teacher can charge much less in say China, Nepal, India or Africa.
2. Harry Palmer and Avra are people of great integrity. I know them personally and have studied their lives in great detail. Really good folks. That also holds true for some of the early pioneers who were with Harry at the time he founded the course, ie..... Virginia Downsborugh, Susan Sweetland, Miken, and many other senior Trainers and staff that work at the Avatar HQ and at the courses. Give them a call and check them out for yourself. Hearing is believing. o;)
3. That Avatar is a brainwashing cult is a deliberate lie intended to inflame people who have no experience with Harry Palmer, Star’s Edge or Avatar.
4. In the early days and years of Avatar’s history mistakes were made and I encountered a few at my own Masters course and Wizards courses, but these were mostly thru one or two of the Trainers I interacted with at such courses and just one or two of these Trainers were pure assholes. ( I admit I was half of the problem ( equally bad asshole & type A personality haha ) but then again, I was paying so I had a right to a bit of indulgence O:)) Whereas these jokers, had no right to be there in the first place! Well, all that is only human. That’s just likely to be the case in any other organization, as no organization on earth is perfect....and can ever aspire to pure perfection as long as humans have yet to transcend biology or the human condition of everyday fear and doubt. And yet 90% of those on the course were simply magical and the experience shifted me in a profound way.
5. Joshua you are right in some aspects that you point out but saying that this could be a cult is totally irrational. I agree that the secrecy part has to go some day. I think it was fear based. That Avatar can undo anything and everything in the world ( Harry had to sue Eldon didnt he? He had to resort to the courts instead of using any of the practises taught at the Avatar Courses ) That the fee structure needs to be modified to encompass many millions of people who cant afford an ordinary daily meal and yet must be emancipated from their lack and suffering.
That the reliance on delivering a course solely based on a written piece of paper or binder is fear based and archaic. But having said that I can tell you in all honesty Avatar is right there at the top with the best of the best in Self Empowerment!
6. None of the Avatar Students chant ‘Harry Palmer Mantras’...none of them wear saffron colored robes, beads or medals with his picture ( he is a bit ugly looking you know, sorry Harry...) , grow their hair and nails or live in a commune, all Avatar Students live in their homes, have access to TV, newspapers ( thats where all the brain washing really goes on you know ), food of any kind, drinks if they wish and sex. Yes, they also have their own bank accounts and own their own property. They do not have any secret hand shake systems like the Freemasons. They dont have an annual pilgramage to the home of Harry Palmer.
Did I tell you I have taught the course to Zen Monks, Freemasons, Christians, Jews, Muslims ( yes Muslims ) Russian Atheists, Chinese Agnostics, Buddhists, Fire Worshipers, Hindus, Jains and several other religious adherents without violating any of their religious beliefs!
Would I be ex-communicated if I called Harry an asshole? No way!
( if fact I once did we both laughed ( me hysterically) for a solid 5 minutes ) ...
Would I be ex-communicated if I did not teach the course and rake in students for the Master levels? No way!
Did I make a fortune teaching the courses? Honestly, if I continued to teach it as a way of making money I might have had to file Chapter 11 by now....huh.
Have I broken the Avatar rules about charging students the fixed International Delivery Price and delivering the course for almost nothing when I realized some of the students could not pay except if they borrowed on their credit cards? Yeah sure. Did the Avatar HQ folks come down on me and cancel my license? No way! Were they angry with me and threaten me with consequences? No way! They were very compassionate and understanding.
7. I would like to say that Avatar is surely a great work of applied art and a breakthrough in human consciousness!
When anyone else reading this blog, gets over being right, you are invited, on your own time, to cycle between
the Integrity (1) and Forgiveness Option (5) mini-courses ............
until you feel personally responsible for your actions and no longer have any desire to blame, humiliate, or hurt others.
The mini-courses are available for free download here: avatarepc.com/html/mini-eng.html
If I have offended anyone reading this post and you Joshua my dear brother.......my apologies....for it was unintentional!
May you find what you are looking for!