On Preventing Cultish Behavior

Namaste Joshua,

I know you have issues with the money aspect of the Avatar training and think more safeguards should be built into the organization. Your concerns are in some ways contradictory because the money aspect is a safeguard. Avatar is run as a for-profit business and for-profit businesses fail if they do not deliver a value equal to the product they deliver. And at least the first 4 to 5 days of training is delivered on a no-questions-asked money back guarantee if you are not satisfied.

There is a section in the back of ReSurfacing entitled Star’s Edge Philosophy that explains the somewhat unorthodox approach of Star’s Edge to spiritual development. Here’s a brief quote:

“The Avatar Program is a straightforward exchange of a valuable training program for valuable financial consideration. When you understand how really clean this is, and the ramifications…

“We’re not founding a new religious sect or any sort of true faith zealots. We don’t want to convey any belief system or series of agreements to people. We do not have a hidden agenda, nor do we apologize for being prosperous and powerful. Whoever created the belief that poverty and world service go hand-in-hand cost humanity the help of some of the brightest people who have ever lived.”

And then more:

“Our intention is that the people we train and license to deliver Avatar charge money (not worship nor homage nor admiration, but currency alone) for their valuable service and that they charge enough to guarantee that Avatar continues to expand and attract the able…”

PS While you were reading this post, it’s highly probably that somewhere in the world someone completed Avatar.

SE Comm,

This reply from you, following on the heels of what I just posted, is an excellent way to convince me that you are indeed mired in a cult.

Several things to note:

1. I’m the last person to have issues with money. I’m a freaking Objectivist — I love money. I am just concerned about the particular way in which your organization mixes money with spiritual proseletizing.

2. I see nothing in your message but boilerplate ra-ra for the Avatar program.

3. You are writing under a fake name, which lowers any trust I might have for your message.

4. You have ignored (and failed) the challenge I set forth in my message, which was to demonstrate that you see the shadow side of your own organization.

Traditional proseletizing will not get you very far here, because you’re behaving more or less exactly the way I would expect a professional cult to behave.

Also, earlier this morning you wrote and accused me of “empowering” someone to extort $4 million from your organization.

So you get an F so far.

I have no doubt there are many people within your organization who can demonstrate spiritual integrity. But you’re not doing it.

Joshua

Whatever your standards are for sipiritual integrity, don’t be too disappointed that I don’t meet them. They are your standards afterall.

Integrity has more to do with living according to one’s own standards than in desiring to bow to an appreciative audience.

Farewell.

I’m not asking you or anyone to bow before an appreciative audience. I’m asking you to acknowledge that your organization — any significant organization — has a shadow, a potential for harm, a dark side.

Replying that “your standards aren’t my standards” is a cop-out. I don’t think you are doing Avatar any favors by taking this route.

nice work Joshua

i like your DARK SIDE shadow side concept

i believe that ANY club — spiritual or not, boat clubs and councils — show their integrity and maturity by their understanding of this concept…

some spirtual orgs seem to to think it’s non existent which shows their ignorance others think it shouldn’t be mentioned — sort of like dictators, wanting to keep others in the dark

when the humn race starts looking at this principle we may get closer to this enlightened planet they promise, but when the avatar ites themselves are ignorant of it or in denial or wanting to keep it a secret…..

its a shame… they won’t put attention on subjects like this — i’m guessing because they think its dissempowering in some way… and because of the emphasis they place on attention, their lack of acknowledgement of subjects like this leads to blindspots

search for “epc 45″ basher …. to see if you are ready to be burned at the stake

If I had to go solely by the posts of Avatar members here alone, then I would have to think it’s a cult.

The main characteristic is inability to accept criticism. I’ve been rearching Avatar for some time — yes considering sources — and all I find in rebuttal to critics is a long-winded analysis of why they arew flawed and therefore biased and cannot be believed.

Biased? So what? Bias does not make a lie. That’s a basic rule of logic — ad hominem attacks are false arguments. Except if you take Avatarian subjective reality to the point of delusion, saying things like “you’re standards aren’t my standards” to avoid any possible responsibility outside of oneself.

According to one interpretation of Avatar philosophy, that’s okay. Do whatever you want — there is no right or wrong except what you can live with, and you can change what is right and wrong anytime you want because it’s only a limitation anyway. While this is true metaphysically, it is also indicative of mental and moral illness, and you cannot “discreate” the consequences of it, i.e. being called a cult, people not buying into your own (Palmer’s?)creation, which ironically you are unwilling to realize is the ultimate “transparent” belief.

Sorry if this offends you, but if you are unwilling to look at the “shadows” others speak of, then you are not willing to apply Avatar’s handling processes to Avatar itself.

Man, I remember when finding truth was a searching process of discovery, not a shopping experience of belief choices. I like belief management — a lot — but the pitfalls — when ignored — will ruin your life even if you insist on having a smile on your face to the end. That’s what they mean by ignorance is bliss.

Awesome!

I can relate completely with the unwillingness to look at the “shadow side”. I am the young enthusiastic idealist that you mentioned above and I am super enthusiastic about avatar…
well I was… for a while.
But… That zeal of having found the “One True way” lead me to some dark times. I didn’t look at my friends the same way, or anyone for that matter. Rather I saw people as another person that should do Avatar then all will be ok. And not only that, but they should take the course from me so I can get rich! /sigh It’s true. Avatar awakened a part of me that thrives in being in service to others, ( and it is true joy by the way!) but then another part of me crept right on in and said, how can I use this to get rich??

Then one day two friends, sat me down and totally ripped Avatar a new one. Basically calling it Scientology and being pretty rude about Scientology, and saying I got ripped off etc…
And so, being that I was sooo fixed into Avatar being soo freakin awesome, it was like having the world pulled from out under my feet and I felt really really crappy, for a few months. If Avatar is crap, well then I am crap, if it is a con, well then I am a con is what I felt. I went back to using actually…. (not drugs hehe, my form of escaping is MMO rpg’s, but that’s a new topic )

So even though during the course I was never told that this is the only way, this is the best etc… I came out believing that and went on to ostracize my friends and family and look at new friends as potential students. On top of all of that I couldn’t look at any anti avatar websites or writings, it just made me feel sick. Until this moment.

Thanks Joshua! Thanks for showing me the dark side, without any attacking witch trial type zeal. I’ve been so afraid of being attacked again that I haven’t mentioned avatar when people ask me what I’ve been up to. It’s funny but a positive thing that came out of my “heavy recruitment stage” was that I went to a lot of spiritual groups (fertile ground) and after easing my agenda of making new students I made some great friends and gained a broader appreciation of other seekers and other paths.

Right now I’m trying to find a way to get to the Wizards course in January. I have never been and I agree I feel like I’m being “sold” the course. The marketing is great over there at Star’s Edge! But… I’m 23 and totally broke, so lets go get the credit cards and rack up some debt right? This could be another shadow eh? But the story seems to go, using the wizards tools these self imposed limitations can be handled and the debt quickly and easily paid off. Empty promises, more shadows? dunno, but if you’re interested I’ll let you know how everything works out.

Regards,
Geoff Matson

P.S. I would just like to express what I’ve been afraid to say.

Never mind I’m still too scared. ~~~~ lol

ok ok ok

It’s just something along the lines of, I really want to help this planet. I want to leave the world a better place then I got it for the sake of my children and their children. And this is a attitude and a belief that was indoctrinated into me by Avatar, and I’m sincerely grateful for it.

thank you

Hello Joshua,

Was surprised to read your post and comments about Avatar!

May I share with you what my perspective is on the Avatar Course and the Materials to date having taken them in the early part of 1988 quite sometime ago;

1. They are very powerful techniques. They are easy to do and carry out with a good course facilitator. Not all Avatar Masters are created equal or much less gifted. Many of them do make mistakes and err. I dont think for a moment Harry Palmer claims to have all the answers and ever considers himself wiser than any of us. Neither does he claim to be the Pope!

While the cost is high in developing countries there is a mechanism whereby a teacher can charge much less in say China, Nepal, India or Africa.

2. Harry Palmer and Avra are people of great integrity. I know them personally and have studied their lives in great detail. Really good folks. That also holds true for some of the early pioneers who were with Harry at the time he founded the course, ie….. Virginia Downsborugh, Susan Sweetland, Miken, and many other senior Trainers and staff that work at the Avatar HQ and at the courses. Give them a call and check them out for yourself. Hearing is believing. o;)

3. That Avatar is a brainwashing cult is a deliberate lie intended to inflame people who have no experience with Harry Palmer, Star’s Edge or Avatar.

4. In the early days and years of Avatar’s history mistakes were made and I encountered a few at my own Masters course and Wizards courses, but these were mostly thru one or two of the Trainers I interacted with at such courses and just one or two of these Trainers were pure assholes. ( I admit I was half of the problem ( equally bad asshole & type A personality haha ) but then again, I was paying so I had a right to a bit of indulgence O:)) Whereas these jokers, had no right to be there in the first place! Well, all that is only human. That’s just likely to be the case in any other organization, as no organization on earth is perfect….and can ever aspire to pure perfection as long as humans have yet to transcend biology or the human condition of everyday fear and doubt. And yet 90% of those on the course were simply magical and the experience shifted me in a profound way.

5. Joshua you are right in some aspects that you point out but saying that this could be a cult is totally irrational. I agree that the secrecy part has to go some day. I think it was fear based. That Avatar can undo anything and everything in the world ( Harry had to sue Eldon didnt he? He had to resort to the courts instead of using any of the practises taught at the Avatar Courses ) That the fee structure needs to be modified to encompass many millions of people who cant afford an ordinary daily meal and yet must be emancipated from their lack and suffering.

That the reliance on delivering a course solely based on a written piece of paper or binder is fear based and archaic. But having said that I can tell you in all honesty Avatar is right there at the top with the best of the best in Self Empowerment!

6. None of the Avatar Students chant ‘Harry Palmer Mantras’…none of them wear saffron colored robes, beads or medals with his picture ( he is a bit ugly looking you know, sorry Harry…) , grow their hair and nails or live in a commune, all Avatar Students live in their homes, have access to TV, newspapers ( thats where all the brain washing really goes on you know ), food of any kind, drinks if they wish and sex. Yes, they also have their own bank accounts and own their own property. They do not have any secret hand shake systems like the Freemasons. They dont have an annual pilgramage to the home of Harry Palmer.

Did I tell you I have taught the course to Zen Monks, Freemasons, Christians, Jews, Muslims ( yes Muslims ) Russian Atheists, Chinese Agnostics, Buddhists, Fire Worshipers, Hindus, Jains and several other religious adherents without violating any of their religious beliefs!

Would I be ex-communicated if I called Harry an asshole? No way!
( if fact I once did we both laughed ( me hysterically) for a solid 5 minutes ) …

Would I be ex-communicated if I did not teach the course and rake in students for the Master levels? No way!

Did I make a fortune teaching the courses? Honestly, if I continued to teach it as a way of making money I might have had to file Chapter 11 by now….huh.

Have I broken the Avatar rules about charging students the fixed International Delivery Price and delivering the course for almost nothing when I realized some of the students could not pay except if they borrowed on their credit cards? Yeah sure. Did the Avatar HQ folks come down on me and cancel my license? No way! Were they angry with me and threaten me with consequences? No way! They were very compassionate and understanding.

7. I would like to say that Avatar is surely a great work of applied art and a breakthrough in human consciousness!

When anyone else reading this blog, gets over being right, you are invited, on your own time, to cycle between

the Integrity (1) and Forgiveness Option (5) mini-courses …………

until you feel personally responsible for your actions and no longer have any desire to blame, humiliate, or hurt others.

The mini-courses are available for free download here: avatarepc.com/html/mini-eng.html

If I have offended anyone reading this post and you Joshua my dear brother…….my apologies….for it was unintentional!

May you find what you are looking for!

Greetings Joshua,

A few friends I met recently are ensconced in the Avatar programme, and after much googling, I came across this blog. I thoroughly enjoy this logical challenge that you have submitted to proponents of Avatar.

After reading the responses, I think your point about Avatar’s cultish potential is proved again. I respect that you didn’t outright call Avatar a cult (as I perhaps did in my own conclusions), but merely suggested that the group exhibited some cult-like symptoms and opportunities.

All of the supporters of Avatar fail to highlight the pros AND cons of their organisation/corporation. Instead, we see self-defense, accusations, and in HMSS UK’s response, a watered down anecdote about how he has lightly rebelled against the group, but hey look! they are good guys just like the rest of us. “I even called Harry an asshole!” How irrelevant. Of course we’re not dealing with Kim Jong-Il here. There’s something about this casual cammeraderie that allows Avatar to appear harmless and modern.

Sure, it doesn’t seem like the Avatar group is as tenacious as some truly frightening cults, but notice how HMSS UK blames all of the fallibilities of the organisation on himself or the human condition, etc.. Avatar is never held responsible nor are criticisms and areas of improvement in their teachings highlighted. Rather than offering a critical examination of where Avatar COULD go wrong, we are painted a friendly picture – “See, we aren’t hunted down, punished, bullied, etc.”

Finally, notice the quick transition from defense to sales pitch. Now THAT shows some devout loyalty right there.

Joshua,

thank you brother. This is some of the most clear-headed cautionary writing on Avatar I have seen over the years.

I became involved as a doe-eyed 22-year-old seeker in 1990 and reviewed the Masters course a few times. It wasn’t until 1997 that a light went on, when I read the brilliant Scientology exposé “Bare-Faced Messiah”. There were so many parallels to Avatar that I could no longer deny it.

Then I read Eldon Braun’s well-written and thoughtful “Wiz Of Orlando”, and it was all over. It was a bit painful to admit to myself that I had allowed myself to be culted, but it was a big relief at the same time.

I can say that I did several years of careful research and investigation, on both sides of the line, and have found Avatar to be a cult, which in my case did more damage than good. Some of the exercises can produce quiet mind and expanded states, but for me they do not amount to genuine spiritual growth. They detract from it.

I went back to meditation, which was my main practice before I heard about Avatar.

Really enjoying reading this discussion.

By the way, I am not giving my name because it will likely be found by my local Avatar connections, and I really do not wish to get caught up in talking about it with them. If anyone wants identification or more info just let me know.

I am known as an “Avatar Master”, having done the original course and the Master course. How do I feel about Avatar? Well, it is split into the Avatar exercises itself and Star’s Edge (the body which delivers the exercises). I enjoy the actual Avatar exercises and use them daily, but I loathe Star’s Edge which in its’ own operation contradicts the Avatar teachings on multiple levels.

The first thing I would mention is that Harry Palmer calls himself “author of the Avatar materials”. Harry speaks of a floatation tank “aha moment” that birthed these materials. However, when I actually look inside that floatation tank, what I see is Harry frantically scribbling notes whilst flipping through text-books called Zen Buddhism De-Identification, Scientology Run-Downs and the Sedona Method. Once his notes are complete, he stamps a big copyright sign on it. Harry Palmer is not an author, he is a re-brander. The Avatar materials are a pure combination of the three disciplines I just mentioned above.

I think Josh’s description of “young enthusiastic idealism[ists]” hits the nail on the head. Regardless of how cultish the Avatar program itself is, it has attracted a very cultish community. The community has more influence than the actual program. Courses have floods of young people come in who know of no other spiritual paths. In fact, when I tell fellow Avatars how similar the course is to Scientology and Zen Buddhism, they have nothing to offer as they know of no other spiritual practice. A really typical example of this mentality was when talking with a fellow Master Course graduate after they stood me up on a lunch date (forgot about it). The graduate said “you must be angry”, I said “no, not really”, and they replied “wow, you must have a lot of Avatar in you”. To which I thought “umm no… I am just conscious after a lot of meditation. Avatar had nothing to do with it. Avatar does not own consciousness.” I cringe at this narrow thinking and guess it is caused from people who are following someone who has collated ancient teachings and suggested they are his own creation.

I found doing the Avatar course an amazing experience. In itself, it was the best week of my life. But if you choose to do the course, I recommend you go in there with clear boundaries for what exactly you want to achieve and how involved you want to get. Otherwise, you will be pushed into devoting your life to it (under the guide of “keeping you moving forward”).

What really irks me is that there is more social value on attending courses than actually taking the tools and using them in your life. I had a chat with a Wizard Course graduate recently who said to me:
“Hi [name]! What are you doing?”
“Umm… just feeling it.” (Would have thought this to be obvious since I was standing there inanimate staring at a tree with a blank look on my face.)
“Oh I’m sorry! I’m all up in my head, haven’t done any exercises in a few days.”
“Okay.”
“But you’re coming to [location of upcoming course] right?”
The Avatar community celebrates someone so committed to going to courses. I see someone who is addicted. Someone who won’t take the exercises and simply use them without needing to feed off the intervention.

What was somewhat of a last straw to me was talking to a staff member recently. I was being pushed to go and do mini-courses at an Avatar course local to me. This was happening until I heard from the big country administrator that they won’t be doing mini-courses, as “they were focusing on getting people to Orlando”. What they mean by Orlando is pushing people who did the original course to fly to the other side of the world a few weeks later and do the Master Course (all-up 3x the cost). I immediately thought “how is that for ‘a series of experiential exercises’, to have the entire course agenda on you to fly to Orlando and do the next course?”.

This is the real cultish thing to me. This constant “keep you moving forward” which really means doing as many Avatar courses as physically possible. To see it from the delivery side as a Master, I have been pushed into delivering the course as soon as possible. I am assumed to want to contribute to this “Enlightened Planetary Civilisation” despite not actually knowing what Harry means by that. How can I find out? The Wizard’s Course.

If anyone is wondering whether Harry has become a personality cult figure I would encourage people to check out the movement on his Facebook account.

I guess the main point I can make is that the Avatar light (experience) can be absolutely amazing, but the shadow is dark and thick. Be exactly what they will encourage you to be, someone who knows exactly what they want and decide for themselves. If you resist doing more courses they might present it as “a persistent identity” or “being in a creation” but do trust your instinct. It’s very convenient that all resistance to giving your life to Avatar is just a “secondary” but be okay with that resistance, because perhaps it is just a “primary” you don’t want to create. If the Avatar staff follow their own teachings, they will be okay with that – if they aren’t, it makes your resistance much easier.

PS. Just to respond to HMSS UK. First, it sounds to me like you are using Avatar to indoctrinate some belief systems? Second, Avatar is not a breakthrough in human consciousness, nothing in the materials is younger than a thousand years old. Third, yes, there are Harry Palmer mantras: The Wizard Course “Gratitude to Harry” time. Fourth, I know of many Avatar Masters who commune together because it is closer to their local Avatar Centre.

I`ve read through this discussion a few times in recent days,as my partner of 15 years is currently attending the Wizard course. She has never had the money on hand to pay for the three most expensive
couses : the Original,Master,and Wizard. The first was paid for as a gift from her brother(he has never
done Avatar),the Master Course was money lent by a Master(just being paid off now after 3 years),and the Wizard Course was paid a few weeks ago as a loan by a different Master,about 9,500 dollars,including course,expenses,flight,and hotel. I don`t know for sure if lending from Masters or other Avatar employees is considered correct or encouraged by Star`s Edge.

I have never taken an Avatar course,nor anything remotely like it. I write this simply as an observer of my partner`s behavior since beginning her Avatar experience.

One of the most obvious behavioral characteristics is her ability to hardly respond and/or flat out ignore
me when I`ve tried to question or criticise the motives and manipulation of the Star`s Edge Org as well
as the employees of the org who have always pushed her to keep doing courses,as well as refresher “Inspiration Days”. I haven`t seen any “enlightening” behavior. If anything she`s more egotistical and critical of my friends than she was before. Before the recent loan offer was put to her by this Master, she said to me : “What should I say to her? She keeps calling!” Of course,after the loan was proposed to her,
she was all gung-ho on going.

Her Avatar obsession is,to me,a detriment to us having a more healthy,more balanced relationship.
She can`t seem to only leave it at using the “tools” herself. She obviously needs the validation and
manipulation of the various Masters egging her on. I feel at this point the best way for me to deal with
her AA,that is,her Avatar Addiction,is to separate from being around her as much as I can. I feel certain
that she will return from Wizards all puffed up with ego and big dreams. And her asking what`s wrong with me,wanting to have distance from her.